The Rediff Interview/Era Sezhiyan
'We differed with the Congress and started the Janata Dal. We became worse than the Congress'
Is it not ironical that Ramakrishna Hegde, who was
also instrumental in creating the Janata Dal, got thrown out
of the party?
(laughs) All these things are symptoms of a deeper malaise
because we did not ensure the organisation was set up in a democratic
manner. Adhocism gives limitless power to get nominations. At
the same time it also gives limitless power for removal.
Were you surprised by his ouster or did you expect something of this
sort to happen?
No, I did not expect it. I was shocked. This happened on the
thirteenth of June. On the same evening, somebody called
me and asked me about this. Immediately, I contacted Delhi. They
said, they had no other option. I asked, what is the charge? There
should be some basis to expel him. They said, we do not know,
sir. The letter was given to the president and he has passed the
orders and we have given it to the press.
Did you talk to Laloo Prasad Yadav or any other leader?
No, I did not talk to any of them. My first reaction was, it
was unfortunate and I don't accept it. Since it was an inner party
matter, I tried to set it right within the party forum.
I didn't want to comment on the party president and
the leaders. Party discipline and my commitment to the
party made me issue a mild statement.
Did you talk to Hegde about all this?
I contacted him only later. I know so much about these disciplinary
committees because I was the first chairman of such a committee
set up by the Janata Party in 1978. I codified the rules and regulations
then. One of the rules was specific: Irrespective of who takes
action, there is one clause which says any action can be
taken only after issuing a show cause notice. You can't take that
clause away. You should give a chance to the other man to explain.
Here nothing was done. They just gave it to the press and said,
that man is out!
I met him on the 20th or so. I asked him why he made such
caustic remarks in public. I told him he should have been
a bit more restrained. When I was taking it up as a political
issue, he took it as a personal issue. I told him not to do that.
He said what they did was wrong and I should tell the workers.
But where is the forum for us to say all that?
Is the ego clash between Deve Gowda and Hegde a reason for Hegde's
expulsion?
Definitely, definitely. Personality clash is there.
It will be there in every party. But we should not take it to
the personal level. I am not pro-Hegde or anything like that.
I would have protested if Hegde had done this to somebody else.
It is not who is involved that matters, but what is involved.
Now that you are out of the party and Hegde is going to
launch a new party in October, will you support him and join his
party?
I do not know what the party is doing to stand for. If it is
going to lead to another highly centralised one.... and what
is the guarantee that Hegde will not take an action like this
against somebody else? So I will not commit myself. I told
him that.
We differed with the Congress and started this party. We became
worse than the Congress. What is the guarantee that another party
will be better?
You sound dissatisfied with the present political system.
This is happening in every party. Personal interests dominate.
The welfare of the country and the party's credibility are
forgotten. I have been saying this for a long time. It is better
to leave the party when it is in power.
In the statement issued after your resignation,
you said leaders resort to unfair means to achieve
personal gain. Will you elaborate on that?
You see the personal touch everywhere. We organise a party
with a view to win elections. Not for the benefit of the workers, but for yourself. When the
party comes to power, you want to be in power. There is a rush
for office. Personal gain means not only grabbing money but
being in authority, to be in places dispensing (favours), to be
a powerful man.The levels may vary. There is no exception.
One thing has spoiled
the entire party. We had a very good organisational level in many
states. But because of the incessant quarrels at the Centre between
the leaders, the entire network is spoilt. I lost faith in strengthening
the party at the lower levels. Unless you clean from the top to the bottom, it
is very difficult to make it clean. The Delhi leadership is more to blame.
How can I go and tell people that we are wedded to democracy when
I do not practice democracy in my party? How can I criticise
other parties? There is no forum or avenue available for the worker
to vent his feelings. There is no interaction between the leadership
and workers within the party.
Is Hegde's expulsion a reason for your resignation?
That is not the main reason. Hegde's expulsion is one more
thing added to the long list. That is only a symptom, not the
basic problem. The basic problem is centralised authority.
All authority went to the Centre in the hands of one man. And the one
man, one post was given up. This man was the minister, chief minister
as well as the party president. All these things are against the accepted
guidelines on which the party was evolved.
When V P Singh became
prime minister, he had the good sense to resign the party president's
post. It did not work, and it will not work in future also.
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